Mr. MORALES. Tom Hughes. He is incarcerated now in Maxwell

Camp. He is incarcerated for the same charges that I'm serving

time at the present time.

Diego Real.

Senator KERRY. Can you spell that?

Mr. MORALES. Diego--D-i-e-g-o. R-e-a-l.

Senator KERRY. Where is he incarcerated?

Mr. MORALES. I do not have no idea.

Senator KERRY. All right.

He was in the same enterprise as you were?


And Lucas Harmony.

Senator KERRY. Would you spell that again, please?

Mr. MORALES. L-u-c-a-s. Last name is Harmony--H-a-r-m-o-n-y.

Mr. YAVITZ. We should point out that's an alias.

Mr. MORALES. Sorry about that. [Laughter.]

Senator KERRY. Let me come back to that.

Are the other names aliases?

Mr. MORALES. Gary Betzner.

I'm sorry. That was my fault.

Gary Betzner--B-e-t-z-n-e-r.

Senator KERRY. Thank you.

Is that the only one that's an alias?

Mr. MORALES. No. There's quite a few more. [Laughter.]

Senator KERRY. Now, wait, wait.

Mr. MORALES. Oh, no, no. I'm sorry, Senator. Do you mean


Senator KERRY. I know there are quite a few more who have


Mr. MORALES. No. I thought---

Senator KERRY. Of the other names you gave me, were those

aliases or were those the renl names?

Mr. MORALES. No, no, no. The real names.

Senator KERRY. Their real names?


Senator KERRY. Let me do this, because my colleague is also

under some pressure.

I want to ask you a few questions about one area, and then we'll

come back. But I do want the record to go through this detail. I

know it's tedious, but it's very important.

In 1984, you said your shipments began to change.

Is that correct?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, they did.

Senator KERRY. Is that the point in time in which you were ap-

proached by people you knew to be part of the Contra organiza-



Senator KERRY. Can you describe specifically when that took

place and what took place?

Mr. MORALES. That was right after my indictment.

Senator KERRY. When was your indictment?

Mr. MORALES. March 3, March 3 or March 6, 1984. Right after

that, few weeks, maybe a month, I was introduced by the Contra

leaders in south Florida.

Senator KERRY. Who were you introduced to?

Mr. MORALES. I was introduced by Popo Chammoro, Octaviano

Cesar, and---

Senator KERRY. Popo Chommoro.


Senator KERRY. Octaviano Cesar.

Mr. MORALES. Yes, and Marcos Aguado.

Senator KERRY. And Marco Aguado.

Mr. MORALES. Which they represent themselves as being leaders

of the Contras and also represent themselves as CIA agents.

Senator KERRY. Now when you say they "represented them-

selves," did you know of them at that time?

Mr. MORALES. I heard about they being CIA agents. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. When you say "their being," who was a CIA


Mr. MORALES. Marcos Aguado and Cesar Octaviano.

Senator KERRY. How do you know that?

Mr. MORALES. It's being very well known through many people

for a long time around Central America and south Florida.

Senator KERRY. You knew that at the time?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. Did they have to tell you that for you to know


Mr. MORALES. Not whatsoever.

Senator KERRY. And what happened at that point in time?

Mr. MORALES. I was asked for help, financial help, any type of

help that they were looking to have, because they had to be in this

problem, they didn't have enough money, whatever. And also for

exchange of taking care of my legal problems at the moment.

Senator KERRY. I just want to understand this very clearly.

You're saying that they asked you for help?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, they did.

Senator KERRY. Were they specific about the kind of help they

asked you for?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, they did.

Senator KERRY. All right.

Who specifically asked you for what help?

Mr. MORALES. Octaviano Cesar was the one doing most of the

talking in my office.

Senator KERRY. What did he say to you?

Mr. MORALES. He said that 1 was looking for airplanes, money,

training, weapons, explosives, any type, any kind of help.

Senator KERRY. Did you agree to help?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. What did you agree to do?

Mr. MORALES. I agreed to give him some planes, money, and to

help him, to help him out.

Senator KERRY. When he asked you for explosives, and guns, and

other weapons, did you agree to get those weapons?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. Did you know where to get those weapons at

that time?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. How did you know where to get them?

Mr. MORALES. I used to buy the weapons in south Florida, in a

gun shop, before that meeting. It was very obvious that I can buy

more guns after I have the meeting with these particular fellows.

Senator Kerry. How many times did you meet with these leaders

to discuss your help?

Mr. MORALES. Many times, Senator. Many times.

Senator KERRY. In what year?

Mr. MORALES. Since 198--the first time that I saw him, not met

him, but I saw him, was in 1983, around this time, July or so. And

then I was introduced formally to them, and the people, the person

who was going to introduce me, told me who they were. And I

became to be introduced formally with them in 1984.

Consequently to that meeting, I have several, several meetings.

Senator KELLY. Now you agreed to give the Contras a plane?

Mr. MORALES. I agreed to give the Contras quite a few planes.

Senator KERRY. How many planes did you give them?

Mr. MORALES. The first time I agreed to give them a DC-4, a DC-

3, a helicopter, a Piper Navajo.

Senator KERRY. You just gave them? You gave them away?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. What was in it for you?

Why did you give away these planes?

Mr. MORALES. Well, Senator, like I told you before, I was arrested

long before that time, and I was facing one of the most critical

charges because of my indictment. So, they promised me that they

would take care of the legal activities, the legal activities that I

was charged for.

Senator KERRY. Who promised you that?

Mr..MORAI.ES. Cesar and Popo.

Senator KELLY. He said he could take care of your legal prob-


Mr. MORALES. Yes, yes.

Senator KELLY. Specifically?


Senator KELLY. Was he more specific about that?


Senator KERRY. How?

Mr. MORALES. Many times I talked to him and he told me that he

had plenty of friends, being him, the CIA, can advise the superiors

about rny financial support and airplane and training, and, there-

fore, they will finally, eventually will take care of my problem,

which they did. To an extent, they did. As a matter of fact, they


Senator KERRY. We'll come back to that in a little while.

If you'd make a note on that, we'll come back to that in a while.

I want to just run through this so Senator McConnell can have his


Mr. MORALES. Excuse, me one second. [Pause.]

Senator KERRY. Was the plane that you gave the Contras used by


Mr. MORALES. Yes, it was.

Senator KERRY. And you know that for a fact?

Mr. MORALES. For a fact, sir.

Senator KERRY. At this point in time, did you make some agree-

ment about running guns down to various locations and bringing

drugs back?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

That was part of the agreement.

Senator KELLY. When you say "that was part," can you be more


Precisely how did that discussion come about?

Mr. MORALES. I was supposed to give him financial support, also

buying guns for them, supplies, safety houses for them, in south

Florida, buying equipment, different type of equipment, boats, en-

gines, boots, uniforms, whatever it was they need for them to have.

Senator KERRY. How were you supposed to buy this? Did they

give you money?


I was the one who was going to buy, from my own money.

Senator KERRY. Where was the money coming from?

Mr. MORALES. Drugs.

Senator KERRY. Did they know that?

Mr. MORALES. Of course they know that.

Senator KERRY. Why do you say "of course they know that"?

How do you know they know that?

Mr. MORALES. Because we discussed, as a matter of fact, we dis-

cussed to bring drugs that did not belong to me. They were their

own drugs.

Senator KERRY. Whose drugs?

Mr. MORALES. The Contras drugs.

Senator KERRY. How do you know they were Contra drugs?

Mr. MORALES. They told me.

Senator KERRY. What?

Mr. MORALES. They told me. As a matter of fact----

Senator KERRY. What did I they tell you? Did they say here's

drugs, these are Contra drugs?

Mr. MORALES. No, no, no.

They say, there was a few trips that I was supposed to do for

them in drugs. I did not ever ask him where the drugs come from

other than that they were the drugs.

Senator KERRY. Did you do those trips?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. When you say you did, did you personally fly



I instruct my pilot to fly them.

I was waiting on the runway for some of them, and I saw the


Senator KERRY. Now, in 1984, did you personally load weapons

into an airplane in Fort Lauderdale?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I did.

Senator KERRY. Did you see those weapons?

Mr. MORALES. I bought them.

Senator KERRY. Where did you buy them?

Mr. MORALES. I bought them, some of them I bought them in the

gun shop in south Miami.

Senator KERRY. What kind of weapons were they?

Mr. MORALES. Machineguns, automatic rifles, high powered

rifles, pistols, explosives.

Senator KERRY. Were these fully automatic machineguns?

Mr. MORALES. Oh, yes. They were.

Senator KERRY. Did you buy fully automatic machineguns on the

open market in Florida?

Mr. MORALES. I did.

Senator KERRY. In what quantity did you buy them?

Mr. MORALES. We sent many planes full of weapons down there.

I really don't recall specifically the amount of items, but it was

very considerable.

Senator KERRY. Did you load these weapons onto the airplane in

daytime or nighttime?

Mr. MORALES. I did load them in the daytime, 12 noon in the day-


Senator KERRY. Right in the full view of people?

Mr. MORALES. Yes. Many times.

Senator KERRY. And were you at the airport when the planes

came back?

Mr. MORALES. Yes, I was.

Senator KERRY. What did you unload from those planes when

they came back?

Mr. MORALES. I was in the beginning of the runway. The plane

lands and unloads the drugs into the end of the runway.

Senator KERRY. How did you know they were drugs?

Mr. MORALES. I saw them.

Senator KERRY. What did you do with those drugs?

lxdr. MORALES. Sell them.

Senator KERRY. What did you do with the money?

Mr. MORALES. Give it to the Contras.

Senator KERRY. All right.

l'm going to come back to this because there's obviously consider-

ably more detail that needs to be filled in.

Mr. MORALES. Let me make myself clear, Senator.

Senator KERRY. Please.

Mr. MORALES. I gave them back to the same people because the

Contras means a lot to a lot of people. I gave them back to Mr. Oc-

taviano Cesar, who works for, used to work for the CIA, and Mr.

Popo Chammoro, and Marcos Aguado.

Senator KERRY. We're going to come back to go after some of the

details on this.

I'd like to let Senator McConnell have an opportunity here.

Senator McCoNNELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We've heard a lot of allegations in both executive sessions and in

public sessions from people who are currently in jail about a varie-

ty of different individuals who are not in jail.

For example, 3 weeks ago, Mr. Chairman, my staff asked yours

to confirm whether or not certain individuals were or were not

members of the CIA, if such allegations were to be made in public.

We have here today two suggestions, of two individuals, that Mr.

Morales, who is currently in jail, say were members of the CIA.

I just wonder if counsel has found the answer to that, since we

have made that request several weeks ago.